Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Li Wenxian

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep and move to Li Wenxiang Star Mississippi 14:46, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Li Wenxian[edit]

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This article should be deleted because there is no substantial coverage of Li Wenxian. The only known mentions of him are brief descriptions in crime encyclopedias. The most detailed mention of him is a one & a half page description in the book "Still at large : a casebook of 20th century serial killers who eluded justice" by Michael Newton. That's another weird thing. That book, an encyclopedia about unidentified serial killers came out in 1999, three years after Li was supposedly caught. Half of the time, the case is treated like it's unsolved. The other half, the case is treated like it is solved. The conflicting reports are a BLP concern, so I believe it should be deleted for that reason as well. Silent-Rains (talk) 20:44, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Crime and China. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 21:04, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete unless better sources can be found. In addition to the strange inconsistency between sources that User:Silent-Rains has pointed out, it's weird that no one has been able to find any Chinese-language sources about the subject. I've looked but haven't found any. The sole source currently cited in the article gives a different name (Lu Wenxian instead of Li Wenxian) and seems questionable, as it claims that "it's unlikely that the world will ever hear" about any other Chinese serial killers, but we have articles about many others from before the source was published (look in Category:Chinese serial killers and subcats for more).

The lack of decent sources makes me wonder if this supposed "Guangzhou Ripper" is some kind of hoax perpetrated on or by Michael Newton. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 21:25, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
1. Sources published after the Guangzhou Ripper's 1996 death sentence:
  1. Schechter, Harold (2003). The Serial Killer Files: The Who, What, Where, How, and Why of the World's Most Terrifying Murderers. New York: Ballantine Books. pp. 119–120. ISBN 0-345-46566-0. Retrieved 2023-02-26.
    The book has a section about Li Wenxian. The book notes: "Information about serial murder in hard-line Communist societies is difficult to come by, since—according to official party propaganda—such heinous crimes is strictly a product of decadent Western capitalism and could not possibly exist in a people's republic. And indeed, the world might never have heard about the monster known as the "Guangzhou Ripper" if the hideously violated corpse of a young woman had not floated ashore in the then-British colony of Hong Kong in March 1992. The victim's body had been slit from throat to groin and her fingers sliced off. When authorities determined that the body had drifted in from the mainland, the outside world learned the truth ..."
    The book later notes, "The break finally came in November 1996, when a woman survived the Ripper's savage assault and identified her attacker as a construction worker named Li Wenxian, a onetime farmer who had migrated to Guangzhou in 1991, just prior to the start of the Ripper slayings. In custody, Wenxian confessed to all thirteen murders, exposing another discomfiting fact that clashed with the utopian mythology of the Communist state—that prostitution, as well as serial homicide, existed in China. A classic "harlot slayer," Wenxian had vowed revenge against all prostitutes after one of them—so he claimed—had cheated him of money shortly after his arrival in Guangzhou. Convicted of murder and rape, he was sentenced to death in December 1996."
  2. Michael Newton books:
    1. Newton, Michael (1999). Still at Large: A Casebook of 20th Century Serial Killers Who Eluded Justice. Port Townsend, Washington: Loompanics. pp. 104–105. ISBN 1-55950-184-7. Retrieved 2023-02-26 – via Internet Archive.
      The Still at Large book was published in 1999, but the killer was caught several years earlier. The author wrote on the "Acknowledgments" page, "Others who provided valuable input during 20 years of sporadic research, include ..." and the author wrote on page 5, "Every effort has been made to keep the text of Still at Large as accurate and up-to-date as possible. That said, I would appreciate notification of any errors or omissions." It is likely that the author had done research for this book over numerous years and did not learn that there was an update in the case in which the Guangzhou Ripper was caught. The book has outdated information but I would still consider it a reliable source for background about the case. In fact, Michael Newton corrected this in a book he published the following year (Newton 2000).
      The book has a case history titled ""Guangzhou Ripper" — China (1991–92)". The book notes: "Thus far, there has been press coverage of the crimes in China, marking the case as a "success" in terms of propaganda, even though the murderer remained at large. Chinese authorities ran out of luck in March of 1992, when a seventh victim washed ashore in the nearby British colony of Hong Kong. As described in the South China Morning Post, number seven had been slit from throat to stomach, then crudely stitched shut again, her fingers severed almost as an afterthought. Because no women were reported missing from Hong Kong, it was assumed the corpse had floated in from mainland China, and thus the "Guangzhou Ripper" was belatedly exposed."
    2. Newton, Michael (2000). The Encyclopedia of Serial Killers. New York: Checkmark Books (Facts On File). pp. 139–140. ISBN 0-681-28940-6. Retrieved 2023-02-26 – via Internet Archive.
      The book has a section titled "Li Wenxian". The book notes, "Still the murders continued for another four years, some victims bludgeoned with a hammer in addition to being choked and stabbed repeatedly. Thirteen women were dead by November 1996 when the Ripper made his first make, leaving his latest victim alive. The woman identified her attacker as Li Wenxian, a one-time farmer from southern Guangdong province who had migrated to Guangzhou in 1991 and found work with a construction team. In custody, Li confessed to the attacks, telling police that he was motivated by revenge against all prostitutes, since one of them had cheated him a short time after his arrival in Guangzhou. Convicted by the Intermediate People's Court on charges of murder, rape, and robbery, Li was sentenced to death on December 18, 1996."
2. Sources published before the Guangzhou Ripper's 1996 death sentence:
  1. "Serial killer stalks city streets but press remains silent". Toronto Star. Reuters. 1992-05-31. Archived from the original on 2023-02-26. Retrieved 2023-02-26.
    The article notes: "He may well be the first mass murderer of his kind in China - but hardly a soul in Guangzhou has heard about him.Fear of copycat crime is only one reason why local police authorities have hushed up the case. They have never encountered a psychotic sex killer, and seem afraid to admit one could exist in socialist China. ... The "Guangzhou Ripper" has struck six times, each time leaving his distinctive mark, and doing his work so thoroughly that not one of the bodies has been identified. ... Since there were no reports of a missing young woman in Hong Kong, police speculated the body had floated from China, and the story of the "Guangzhou Ripper" broke in the local press."
  2. Chan, Gary (1992-03-02). "Police hunt 'Ripper' of Guangzhou". South China Morning Post. p. 3. ProQuest 1753802112.
    The article notes: "Hongkong and Chinese police are liasing in a bid to discover whether the murder of a young woman, whose horribly mutilated body was found in Tuen Mun last week, is connected with seven recent rape murders of prostitutes in Guangzhou. Every finger has been cut from the corpse found on Tuesday on the shore at Lan Kok Tsui. ... She is believed to be the seventh victim of the "Guangzhou Ripper" who has been terrorising the city since December. All seven were raped then killed in a similar manner. As Lan Kok Tsui is near Shekou, in Shenzhen, police believe the dead woman found in Hongkong may have been murdered in China and thrown into the sea."
  3. John Kohut's 1992 articles:
    1. Kohut, John (1992-06-14). "Canton Ripper's grisly record remains a secret". The Sunday Times. Archived from the original on 2023-02-26. Retrieved 2023-02-26.
      The article notes: "There is a chilling ritual about the Canton Ripper as he goes about his grisly work. First he rapes his victims, then he strangles, suffocates or knifes them to death. In a final act of frenzy, the bodies are dismembered, stuffed into rice bags and dumped in rubbish bins in the sleazy suburbs of Canton. ... While the local press has not dared defy the news blackout, newspapers in nearby Hong Kong have not been so restrained and have reported any detail they can extract from the Cantonese police. The latest burst of publicity was in March, when the mutilated body of a young woman was discovered off the colony's shores."
    2. Kohut, John (1992-06-20). "China living in ignorance of the 'Guangzhou Ripper': A serial killer is stalking the streets of Guangzhou, yet the authorities are determined no one should know this. John Kohut reports". South China Morning Post. p. 22. ProQuest 1541290542.
      The article notes: "But the "Guangzhou Ripper" has one thing going for him which serial killers elsewhere do not. Thanks to a deeply ingrained Confucian-communist puritanism, sex crimes are not normally publicly reported in China, least of all while they are still under investigation. This means the killer's potential victims do not even know he exists. "If we reported the murders, it would cause terror among the masses," said Zeng Tiangui, a senior official in the Guangdong province police force. The Guangzhou Ripper is not China's first serial killer, but he is perhaps the only one to have made it into the newspapers – at least, foreign newspapers. While the state-run Chinese press has not dared to defy the official news blackout on the case, the media in Hongkong, fed by leaks from the Guangzhou police, have reported on the murders, most recently in March when the body of a young women was discovered off the shores of the territory, snagged on a rock."
    3. Kohut, John (1992-06-27). "China's 'Canton Ripper' at large". The Boston Globe. Archived from the original on 2023-02-26. Retrieved 2023-02-26 – via Newspapers.com.
  4. The New Paper articles on 6 January 1995:
    1. "'Sold organs in market'". The New Paper. 1995-01-06. p. 6. Retrieved 2023-02-26 – via NewspaperSG. Ministry of Communications and Information.
      The article notes: "Residents of Whangpo village fear they may have eaten the body parts of some of the Guangzhou Ripper's victims. Earlier last year, the Ripper quit his truck driver's job and started selling something in the village market. ... The Ripper's wife used to help out in the stall. Her whereabouts are not known. The police said he disposed of the body parts by throwing them into rubbish bins. They could not confirm if he cooked and sold any of them."
    2. "He kept body parts in jars". The New Paper. 1995-01-06. p. 6. Retrieved 2023-02-26 – via NewspaperSG. Ministry of Communications and Information.
      The article notes: "When the police raided the house of the Guangzhou Ripper, they found dried female organs and breasts preserved in jars. They also found the body parts glued to mannequins inside his bedroom. ... The Ripper kept a meticulous record of his grisly deeds and his victims' particulars — name, age, dialect group, native village, vital statistics and date of murder — in a diary. He also videotaped himself having sex with the corpses. The diary and the videotapes were found in a secret compartment behind his bedroom wall."
    3. Chong, Yaw Yan (1995-01-06). "Guangzhou Ripper". The New Paper. p. 6. Retrieved 2023-02-26 – via NewspaperSG. Ministry of Communications and Information.
      The article notes: "A truck driver, dubbed the Guangzhou Ripper, killed 14 women and cut out their private parts and preserved them. ... The ripper, 39, known only as Ah Piew to fellow villagers in Whangpo in China, was arrested by police last September after a four-year reign of terror. His victims were all prostitutes he lured home and then strangled, like the 19th-Century British killer, Jack the Ripper. ... He is married with two children — a girl, 12 and a boy, five. ... The breakthrough came when one of his victims escaped and led the police to his house." The article says its sources are Sing Tao Evening Post, Ming Pao, Ta Kung Pao, and Eastern Herald.
There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow the Guangzhou Ripper (also known as the Canton Ripper and Li Wenxian) to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".
Cunard (talk) 00:01, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, User:Cunard. As always, I'm impressed with your ability to find sources on obscure topics like these. Using some of the information that you quoted, I've managed to find sources in Chinese like this one. It seems that the subject's name is actually Li Wenxiang (李文香), not Li Wenxian — that's part of why I was having trouble. Mistransliterations like this are fairly common in southern China. I think we should keep and move to Li Wenxiang. 02:08, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

This is a really good find. I was unable to find the subject's Chinese name during my search for sources, but through your excellent research skills you were able to find it. I agree that the article should not be at Li Wenxian as Li Wenxiang is the proper transliteration. An alternative is to move the article to Guangzhou Ripper as that might be the WP:COMMONNAME for the subject. But I looked at list of nicknames of serial killers, and it seems that most articles of the identified serial killers are titled by their actual names rather than nicknames. Cunard (talk) 05:09, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Cunard's comprehensive source list leaves no doubt that the subject passes the WP:GNG. Even beforehand, the inclusion in global crime books should have served as a warning that there would be no case whatsoever for deletion. The article is short because it had been slashed without good reason. With the new sources, some or all of the deleted texts should be included in the article again. gidonb (talk) 06:00, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Cunard. Silent-Rains (talk) 21:54, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Cunard. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:12, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.